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The real Brexit thread

darrenrover

Senior Member
After 18 months dancing to the tune of Junker and co. and getting nowhere, perhaps now is the time to have the balls to walk away from the table with the message we'll talk when you seriously want to talk turkey. It's ridiculous that 'talks' in reality haven't really started yet and half way in the sole conversation has really been about the European cash shortfall and little else.

What about when any arrangements agreed round the table then need to be ratified by both the disjointed House of Parliament and are subject to a veto by any one of 27 European nations? Not a cat in hells chance of progress then IMO.

The whole process as it currently stands is doomed to failure. If only the dickheads in Brussels had heeded the warnings from Cameron that serious reform was urgently needed then we might not now be in this mess.

I voted remain but having seen since the European way of dealing with things, I can't wait for us to tell them to shove it where the sun don't shine.
 

Benjamin Kaynine

Senior Member
So Brexit secretary David Davis has finally admitted that the government has done no Brexit impact assessment.

Liar, liar, liar. But why am I not surprised? God save us from incompetent liars. It seems that all we have left is the gallows humour. Rescind Article 50, please, it was obtained by false pretences. And, worse than that, by this idiotic government who have no plans, and now - as it seems - no plans to make any plans. And to think, it's taken us until now to find that out.....

It would also seem that no impact analysis, neither quantitative nor qualitative, was undertaken by the equally useless Theresa May before appointing the hapless Davis.

God help this country - and send in Jeremy Corbyn
 

yoda

Senior Member
So Brexit secretary David Davis has finally admitted that the government has done no Brexit impact assessment.

Liar, liar, liar. But why am I not surprised? God save us from incompetent liars. It seems that all we have left is the gallows humour. Rescind Article 50, please, it was obtained by false pretences. And, worse than that, by this idiotic government who have no plans, and now - as it seems - no plans to make any plans. And to think, it's taken us until now to find that out.....

It would also seem that no impact analysis, neither quantitative nor qualitative, was undertaken by the equally useless Theresa May before appointing the hapless Davis.

God help this country - and send in Jeremy Corbyn
:joy::joy::joy:
 

darrenrover

Senior Member
So Brexit secretary David Davis has finally admitted that the government has done no Brexit impact assessment.

Liar, liar, liar. But why am I not surprised? God save us from incompetent liars. It seems that all we have left is the gallows humour. Rescind Article 50, please, it was obtained by false pretences. And, worse than that, by this idiotic government who have no plans, and now - as it seems - no plans to make any plans. And to think, it's taken us until now to find that out.....

It would also seem that no impact analysis, neither quantitative nor qualitative, was undertaken by the equally useless Theresa May before appointing the hapless Davis.

God help this country - and send in Jeremy Corbyn
Benjamin, can you tell me what the European Union 'leaders' have done in 18 months to try to facilitate Brexit following a vote taken by due democratic processes?

I'll tell you: Fuck all other than trying to muddy the waters and demonstrating a complete lack of respect for the UK electorate.

I have little time for politicians in general but Corbyn really is not the answer to the needs of UK. He's just another political no-mark looking to further his own ends to the detriment of our nation.
 

Benjamin Kaynine

Senior Member
Benjamin, can you tell me what the European Union 'leaders' have done in 18 months to try to facilitate Brexit following a vote taken by due democratic processes?

I'll tell you: Fuck all other than trying to muddy the waters and demonstrating a complete lack of respect for the UK electorate.

I have little time for politicians in general but Corbyn really is not the answer to the needs of UK. He's just another political no-mark looking to further his own ends to the detriment of our nation.
Two centuries ago, German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer summed up Brexiteers perfectly.

“The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen.

"The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes.

"But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.”

Chris
 

Steve Moss

Senior Member
Two centuries ago, German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer summed up Brexiteers perfectly.

“The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen.

"The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes.

"But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.”
Schopenhauer also supported monarchy, opining “‘monarchy as "that which is natural to man" for "intelligence has always under a monarchical government a much better chance against its irreconcilable and ever-present foe, stupidity" and disparaged republicanism as "unnatural as it is unfavourable to the higher intellectual life and the arts and sciences"’.

He was also more than a bit misogynist.

Schopenhauer was a brilliant man. But there are many brilliant men. Believe it or not, some of those men disagree with Schopenhauer. And like them, I believe in thinking for myself, and not rely on the opinions of a 19th century philosopher.

Nations evolved for a very good reason. Those who would throwaway nationhood for the benefits of some imagined utopia, are lacking in prudence, life experience and a knowledge of history. Schopenhauer himself was a pessimist of the highest degree, and his view of any potential future utopia reflected that pessimism.
 

yoda

Senior Member
Schopenhauer also supported monarchy, opining “‘monarchy as "that which is natural to man" for "intelligence has always under a monarchical government a much better chance against its irreconcilable and ever-present foe, stupidity" and disparaged republicanism as "unnatural as it is unfavourable to the higher intellectual life and the arts and sciences"’.

He was also more than a bit misogynist.

Schopenhauer was a brilliant man. But there are many brilliant men. Believe it or not, some of those men disagree with Schopenhauer. And like them, I believe in thinking for myself, and not rely on the opinions of a 19th century philosopher.

Nations evolved for a very good reason. Those who would throwaway nationhood for the benefits of some imagined utopia, are lacking in prudence, life experience and a knowledge of history. Schopenhauer himself was a pessimist of the highest degree, and his view of any potential future utopia reflected that pessimism.

OOOPS,

John shot down again

:joy:
 

OnlyOneTugay

Prediction Champion 2019 & 2020
Two centuries ago, German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer summed up Brexiteers perfectly.

“The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen.

"The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes.

"But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.”

Chris
Did George Orwell sum up the EU fundamentalists and the Remoaner ‘ intellectuals ‘ in his analysis of the left and their disdain for patriotism ?

“ England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution. . It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God Save the King” than of stealing from a poor box.”


 
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Benjamin Kaynine

Senior Member
Did George Orwell sum up the EU fundamentalists and the Remoaner ‘ intellectuals ‘ in his analysis of the left and their disdain for patriotism ?

“ England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution. . It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God Save the King” than of stealing from a poor box.”
Interesting because although Orwell was a classic socialist in the same mould as Michael Foot and Aneurin Bevan (and probably Jeremy Corbyn) and was a card-carrying member of the independent Labour party, he also maintained that no person or party was above criticism. He was also a staunch patriot.
 

Steve Moss

Senior Member
Did George Orwell sum up the EU fundamentalists and the Remoaner ‘ intellectuals ‘ in his analysis of the left and their disdain for patriotism ?

“ England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution. . It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God Save the King” than of stealing from a poor box.”
George Orwell distinguished between patriotism and nationalism. I think George Orwell was a patriot. This is what he said on the subject:

“By 'patriotism' I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power.”

His more complete comments can be found here- http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat

Is it wrong to be a patriot? Especially in the face of political forces that are attempting to undermine a people’s devotion to their homeland and their particular way of life?
 

davebirch

Senior Member
From my point of view, the last thing that the UK needs is an out and out socialist.
What it needs is a hard nosed politician in the mold of Paul Keating, Bob Hawke or Gough Whitlam. All left wingers, but they knew that they had to work alongside businesses and businessmen, whilst still ensuring that the average Joe was looked after. They realised the need for a capitalist side of government to achieve their ends. Socialism on its own simply does not work. It needs entrepreneurs to create growth. Socialism strangles these types by making them pay more and more until it's not worth it.
 

Drog

Administrator
Staff member
coalition? bloody hell thought you was a proper oity toity through and through
Can you define oity toity through and through Abbey?
Personally I see myself as apolitical but I do tend to veer to the right on most issues. Lets be honest the Labour and Liberals almost never speak much sense do they? Best way to describe most of their policies is 'populist'. They appeal to the masses and imo represent the 7 deadly sins, namely pride, greed, lust,envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth. Tories are better in the main but they are far from perfect tbh.
I respect politicians from both sides who share my view that governments should be governing the country with the next 50 years in mind and not until the next general election. It seemed 'elder statesman' were in the majority in the Commons in my formative years but these days one can count them on both hands and both feet. Short term politics being dangerous and devious. Responsibility to the country and future generations being the key! We need wealth creators at the helm to further the interests of our nation and it's citizens and not devious turncoats uttering sound bytes designed solely to win the next election at all costs.


HOWEVER Re: my idea of coalition. The very first lesson taught at Sandhurst is to 'Identify the enemy'. No good going in all guns blazing and fighting the wrong opponent is it? Our enemy for the next few years is not sitting across the Commons in Westminster, the enemy is sitting across the Channel in Brussels! Last time we were kicking off to protect our nation from aggressive European ambitions a coalition govt was formed. Very similar today except that we are in an economic conflict, not a military one. For the best future for this nation we all need to be pulling together and in the right direction. I just hope the leaders of the political parties can see this and not allow stupid and selfish political ambition to take precedence, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
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Drog

Administrator
Staff member
Two centuries ago, German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer summed up Brexiteers perfectly.

“The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen.

"The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes.

"But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.”

Chris
If that's brains then I'm happy to be thick. Schopenhaur may rail against human fallibility but he should have known that tribalism is rooted deep in the human psyche. Nothing we can do about it and no amount of mealy mouthed words and airy fairy idealistic notions can change an instinct which has developed since before man first stood on two legs.
Read this....
http://rheg.vastserve.com/articles/tribal-instinct.htm?i=1

For right or wrong NO ONE and NOTHING can change our tribal instincts, not education, not short term enforced social changes etc. The only way forward is to a. understand and b. accommodate them.
 

Drog

Administrator
Staff member
And really have the terrorists come in freely. Hes a snivelling terrorist loving snivelling two hat.
His actions and attitude to EVERY terrorist cause debated in the Commons makes it difficult for me to believe that people can talk about him as an option for the Prime Minister of our nation. He is the real Enemy Within. Corbyn is only supported by communists, impressionable kids who have no recollections of the terrorism and killings originating from the IRA and any number of muslim terror organisations, and half wits who vote for him because their Dad was once in a union and voted for Harold Wilson and they lived in a street with an outside loo.
 

yoda

Senior Member
From my point of view, the last thing that the UK needs is an out and out socialist.
What it needs is a hard nosed politician in the mold of Paul Keating, Bob Hawke or Gough Whitlam. All left wingers, but they knew that they had to work alongside businesses and businessmen, whilst still ensuring that the average Joe was looked after. They realised the need for a capitalist side of government to achieve their ends. Socialism on its own simply does not work. It needs entrepreneurs to create growth. Socialism strangles these types by making them pay more and more until it's not worth it.
True words coming from a country that last had a recession god knows how long ago, you can count our “politicians” on one hand and maybe have a couple of digits spare
 

Drog

Administrator
Staff member
From my point of view, the last thing that the UK needs is an out and out socialist.
What it needs is a hard nosed politician in the mold of Paul Keating, Bob Hawke or Gough Whitlam. All left wingers, but they knew that they had to work alongside businesses and businessmen, whilst still ensuring that the average Joe was looked after. They realised the need for a capitalist side of government to achieve their ends. Socialism on its own simply does not work. It needs entrepreneurs to create growth. Socialism strangles these types by making them pay more and more until it's not worth it.
There is a term for that. The Politics of Envy. In the wild when lions kill a water buffalo or a Zebra etc the male lions eat first, then the rest of the pride before the hyena's move in, after them come the vultures and after them the insects and the microbes. The result is that they all survive and prosper even though only the lions are able to bring down and kill large prey. Kill the lions and they all die from starvation.
 
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