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The real Brexit thread

yoda

Senior Member
Welcome defeat for May and the government in the Commons tonight - hopefully the first of many.

Maybe some sanity is returning amid this Brexit madness.
It will be interesting to see what the voters do in those constituencies where the MP has gone against their wishes
 
A

ABBEY

Guest
I don't think the constitutes will accept any vote ..they can't accept the referendum vote ...
Benny how can you accept the Tories losing a vote as you don't accept the results of votes ?
 

Benjamin Kaynine

Senior Member
George Eaton of the New Statesman has explained very well why this vote very much matters and why it can be used to force the government to seek a softer Brexit or even to stop Brexit altogether.

As Oliver Letwin, who opposed the amendment, stated in the debate, this amendment can be used to halt Brexit. And quite right: parliament should have the right to decide whether we exit the EU; we are, after all, a parliamentary democracy, and this is parliament "taking back control" from a few hard right wingers on the Tory backbenches.

Three cheers too to Stephen Hammond, who had the temerity to put country before party and was sacked for his efforts.

Chris
 

yoda

Senior Member
George Eaton of the New Statesman has explained very well why this vote very much matters and why it can be used to force the government to seek a softer Brexit or even to stop Brexit altogether.

As Oliver Letwin, who opposed the amendment, stated in the debate, this amendment can be used to halt Brexit. And quite right: parliament should have the right to decide whether we exit the EU; we are, after all, a parliamentary democracy, and this is parliament "taking back control" from a few hard right wingers on the Tory backbenches.

Three cheers too to Stephen Hammond, who had the temerity to put country before party and was sacked for his efforts.

Chris
Actually it was over 17 million voters, good luck trying to keep that lot in check John
 

OnlyOneTugay

Prediction Champion 2019 & 2020
A minor setback . Brexit is unstoppable , democracy will triumph in the end .

The Armageddon forecast by the miserable Remoaners for the financial sector has been dispelled , Report in the FT , not a great supporter of Brexit , that just 6% of banking jobs will go ( 4,600)
 

Benjamin Kaynine

Senior Member
A minor setback . Brexit is unstoppable , democracy will triumph in the end .

The Armageddon forecast by the miserable Remoaners for the financial sector has been dispelled , Report in the FT , not a great supporter of Brexit , that just 6% of banking jobs will go ( 4,600)


I'm sure that Drunken David Davis will be on TV tomorrow morning saying that parliament was only making a "statement of intent" and that the government might not bother to pay any attention to it.

And then in the next interview the pathological liar will say the exact opposite.

The neo-fascist Daily Mail's headline is Proud of Yourselves? Well, even Michael and the other gormless 37 per cent should be proud of these MPs. They stood up for democracy and a sovereign parliament in the face of threats and intimidation.

I'm hoping today will be seen as the beginning of the end of the process of leaving the European Union , and the beginning of the end of this utterly useless Tory government.

Chris
 

chor808

Senior Member
I'm sure that Drunken David Davis will be on TV tomorrow morning saying that parliament was only making a "statement of intent" and that the government might not bother to pay any attention to it.

And then in the next interview the pathological liar will say the exact opposite.

The neo-fascist Daily Mail's headline is Proud of Yourselves? Well, even Michael and the other gormless 37 per cent should be proud of these MPs. They stood up for democracy and a sovereign parliament in the face of threats and intimidation.

I'm hoping today will be seen as the beginning of the end of the process of leaving the European Union , and the beginning of the end of this utterly useless Tory government.


Chris
You can wish for the end of the Tory government and better still you can vote for someone else at the next election, that is called democracy and we are lucky we have it. Wishing against the will of the people, leaving the EU, is very undemocratic, it seems like what you are saying is you would rather live in a state that does not allow the will of the people (unless they agee with the elite) to make decisions? There are a few you could move to unless you are already posting from there, China, North Korea, Cuba for example.

It is a bump in the road for sure, however I'm not sure some of those MP's understand the level of anger many of their constituents are feeling. I've spoke to a few labour votes who are saying they feel betrayed by their party and regret voting for them at the last election due to their meddling in the Brexit process. They can keep messing about all they like but it will only do two things, weaken our position at the negotiation table (that impacts us all) and I believe weaken the Labour party at the next election.

We will see.
 

Drog

Administrator
Staff member
Sanity Benjamin? I see it as scoring cheap political points at the expense of the best interests of the nation. Whatever happened to the Labour MP's from the Northern Powerhouse regions carrying out the wishes of their electorate? They should stick to their perpetual moaning about the NHS and zero hours contracts. We voted out in the referendum and now it is their duty to carry out their duties as elected representatives. I trust one day they will have to answer to the people that put them in power.

Now you can see why I've been calling for a coalition government to serve the best interests of the Nation. We are in a comflict with the eu, albeit a non military one, yet we are beset with backstabbers and quislings at every turn. We are leaving the EU and this is certainly NOT the best way to achieve this aim in the best interests of our nation.
I've already said that the first rule of conflict is to identify the enemy. It appears that many in Westminster have failed to do that. Many appear to grasp the fact that if Brexit fails that we won't go back to just being financially rogered by the eu, they will want to make us pay for our temerity as an example to the rest of the eu nations that are rather less than satisfied at the direction and form that the eu is taking and who may be considering leaving the asylum.
 
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Drog

Administrator
Staff member
I don't think the constitutes will accept any vote ..they can't accept the referendum vote ...
Benny how can you accept the Tories losing a vote as you don't accept the results of votes ?
Indeed so. Perhaps they should ignore last night's result and have another vote, and then another etc until the government wins.
 

Drog

Administrator
Staff member
George Eaton of the New Statesman has explained very well why this vote very much matters and why it can be used to force the government to seek a softer Brexit or even to stop Brexit altogether.

As Oliver Letwin, who opposed the amendment, stated in the debate, this amendment can be used to halt Brexit. And quite right: parliament should have the right to decide whether we exit the EU; we are, after all, a parliamentary democracy, and this is parliament "taking back control" from a few hard right wingers on the Tory backbenches.

Three cheers too to Stephen Hammond, who had the temerity to put country before party and was sacked for his efforts.

Chris
What an about turn! You are siding with the southerners, bankers etc in the tory heartlands that you profess to despise so much . Worse still you are betraying the northern towns with their solid working class foundations. I'd accuse yopu of betraying your class Benjy..... as you have done to others on here time and again!
 

Benjamin Kaynine

Senior Member
What an about turn! You are siding with the southerners, bankers etc in the tory heartlands that you profess to despise so much . Worse still you are betraying the northern towns with their solid working class foundations. I'd accuse yopu of betraying your class Benjy..... as you have done to others on here time and again!
Hardly.

1. Explain how voting Conservative (as you do) helps the working poor in the north.

2. Explain why you blame the EU for problems caused by the southern-based Conservative party.

3. Explain why a Brexiteer who voted against the Brussels "elite" would then vote for the UK elite (ie, the Tories)?
 

yoda

Senior Member
Hardly.

1. Explain how voting Conservative (as you do) helps the working poor in the north.

2. Explain why you blame the EU for problems caused by the southern-based Conservative party.

3. Explain why a Brexiteer who voted against the Brussels "elite" would then vote for the UK elite (ie, the Tories)?
Point 3 - because they can vote them out if they wish
 

Alan

Administrator
Staff member
Hardly.

1. Explain how voting Conservative (as you do) helps the working poor in the north.

2. Explain why you blame the EU for problems caused by the southern-based Conservative party.

3. Explain why a Brexiteer who voted against the Brussels "elite" would then vote for the UK elite (ie, the Tories)?
Why should he explain himself when you answer him with a question?
 

davebirch

Senior Member
Remember, we are talking to people who are institutionalised.
They want the state to do most of their thinking.
Now, I've no problem with those that can't help themselves being given assistance, but there are far too many that want handouts, and just not individuals, farmers who can't make a go, business people that rely on subsidies rather than being cash flow positive. There have been instances of EU countries dumping produce in places like Australia at below production cost; but when non EU countries export to the EU at below their costs, they scream blue murder and threaten all kinds of retribution.
All this and another level of government to achieve their wants.....
 

Drog

Administrator
Staff member
Hardly.

1. Explain how voting Conservative (as you do) helps the working poor in the north.

2. Explain why you blame the EU for problems caused by the southern-based Conservative party.

3. Explain why a Brexiteer who voted against the Brussels "elite" would then vote for the UK elite (ie, the Tories)?
1. Personal allowance for all paying income tax was £6475 in 2009 / 10 under the last Labour govt. In 7 years it's now £11500 under the Conservative govt. I make that an increase of almost 80% against a backdrop of very low inflation.
2. Because the EU costs us and Germany a fortune with a few other nations contributing very little and a whole raft stood around with the begging bowls out. You might say the Conservative govt and previous governments are to blame but the plain truth is that over 60% of our laws, rules , guidelines etc are made in Brussels not Westminster.
3. They might be politicians but they are OUR politicians. Anyway why should I vote for the Labour elite? I long for this nation to be governed in the long term not the short term and everything Corbyn is promising is just based on his short term scramble for votes..
 

Drog

Administrator
Staff member
Remember, we are talking to people who are institutionalised.
They want the state to do most of their thinking.
Now, I've no problem with those that can't help themselves being given assistance, but there are far too many that want handouts, and just not individuals, farmers who can't make a go, business people that rely on subsidies rather than being cash flow positive. There have been instances of EU countries dumping produce in places like Australia at below production cost; but when non EU countries export to the EU at below their costs, they scream blue murder and threaten all kinds of retribution.
All this and another level of government to achieve their wants.....
Food has to be an exception dave. It's one of the three basic necessities required to support human life along with oxygen and water. History tells us time and again that a nation HAS to be able to feed itself at all times. Sure lower cost of land means there may be cheaper cereals in North America and Canada, there may be cheaper meat from South America and Africa, there may be cheaper dairy products and lamb from New Zealand BUT that's useless if conditions mean that we can't get them here when we need to.
This nation sold out to commonwealth agricultural produce in the 1930's with the result that our own agriculture slumped massively through lack of investment and the resulting rural depopulation. People in agriculture were effectively starved out of the industry so when Adolph ringed our nation with U-Boats to torpedo the convoys out of existence we were in danger of being starved into submission. 'Dig for Victory' was the byword and we were so desperate people were growing veg in window boxes. The population back then was about 45 million, now the next milestone we will pass will be 70m! Who are we going to eat should WW2 conditions ever return? Some things have to be worth paying a little over the odds for.
 

Benjamin Kaynine

Senior Member
1. Personal allowance for all paying income tax was £6475 in 2009 / 10 under the last Labour govt. In 7 years it's now £11500 under the Conservative govt. I make that an increase of almost 80% against a backdrop of very low inflation.
2. Because the EU costs us and Germany a fortune with a few other nations contributing very little and a whole raft stood around with the begging bowls out. You might say the Conservative govt and previous governments are to blame but the plain truth is that over 60% of our laws, rules , guidelines etc are made in Brussels not Westminster.
3. They might be politicians but they are OUR politicians. Anyway why should I vote for the Labour elite? I long for this nation to be governed in the long term not the short term and everything Corbyn is promising is just based on his short term scramble for votes..

1. Raising the threshold at which income tax is paid was a Lib Dems policy in the coalition government and one which they stuck to despite strong opposition from their Conservative partners. Tories had hardly credit for it. One of George Osborne's first acts as chancellor in 201o was to give a tax cut to millionaires.

2. The UK economy has been run for the past 40 years for the benefit of London and the south east. That has nothing to do with the EU.

3. Corbyn is promising to take back control of utility and transport companies that used to belong to the nation but are now in foreign hands. As a "patriot", it is your duty to vote for him.
 

Drog

Administrator
Staff member
1. Labour had been in power for 13 years. Why hadn't they raised the tax threshold? Who provided strong opposition to prevent Labour from doing it?

2. Might be wrong but I'd imagine by far the biggest %age of tax is paid by those in London and the South East. Can you conform / deny Benjamin?

3. As I say it's all a short term scramble for votes by Corbyn. The only ones who are likely to think that is a good idea weren't around when those industry's were publicaly owned.
 

Benjamin Kaynine

Senior Member
1. Why did Labour need to? The economy was performing strongly up until the worldwide financial crash of 2008. The gap between the poorest and wealthiest has grown into a chasm since then, because of central bank's policy of printing money (QE), which has kept interest rates at ridiclulously low levels, boosting the assets of the rich, and hit the disadvantaged hardest.

2. Quite likely. Do you think the north-south divide is healthy for the UK? If you do, and you want that to continue, I'd suggest keep voting Conservative.

3. Don't really get this - all politicians "scramble" for votes short term. How many election pledges has May gone back on - 10 and counting? As a consumer and user of utilities and transport, I'd love to to hear of some of the benefits of privatisation.
 

chor808

Senior Member
1. Raising the threshold at which income tax is paid was a Lib Dems policy in the coalition government and one which they stuck to despite strong opposition from their Conservative partners. Tories had hardly credit for it. One of George Osborne's first acts as chancellor in 201o was to give a tax cut to millionaires.

2. The UK economy has been run for the past 40 years for the benefit of London and the south east. That has nothing to do with the EU.

3. Corbyn is promising to take back control of utility and transport companies that used to belong to the nation but are now in foreign hands. As a "patriot", it is your duty to vote for him.
2. Have to agree however Labour did nothing to stop it.

3. Check again sadly, as much as I'd like this to happen they have back tracked, they are now saying they will open state run alternatives to the utility companies, a bit like what they are doing in Scotland. They are not taking them back into state ownership, it is another gimmic which they will have seen is too expensive to do. I'll dig up where it was said but I was disapointed to hear it.
 
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